tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post3226316414328060550..comments2024-02-23T07:28:01.508-08:00Comments on Owning My Mormon Heritage: Civility is also Advanced CitizenshipPablohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15390721012768975275noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-58628289120277070622010-09-22T21:56:42.234-07:002010-09-22T21:56:42.234-07:00thank you for posting your initial statements and ...thank you for posting your initial statements and for allowing the ensuing discussion. i feel engaged, edified, and enriched.KPWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01272443837752199933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-75204236294856075882010-09-22T17:24:34.907-07:002010-09-22T17:24:34.907-07:00And thus we see that there is a time for shouting ...And thus we see that there is a time for shouting and a time for talking, speak and a time to listen, a time to cast stones and a time to gather stones together. Looks like the class in Civil Discourse in a Democratic Society is still in session. It's not limited to lawyers, just in case anyone is wondering. :)<br /><br />I'd still like to see the formal debate in the Tabernacle though. IPablohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15390721012768975275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-1159433321118585442010-09-22T16:32:28.689-07:002010-09-22T16:32:28.689-07:00There is no place in LDS theology for gay people, ...There is no place in LDS theology for gay people, you see, Ryan. We just don't fit anywhere in the plan. The Church has no explanation for why we exist or what our destiny may be. Some LDS leaders speculate (and that's all it is, because there's no scriptural basis for it) that we will be changed to be straight in the next life. In my experience, few gay Mormons want that. We canRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-49456583557926943892010-09-22T16:31:50.441-07:002010-09-22T16:31:50.441-07:00Ryan:
I appreciate your conciliatory tone and wou...Ryan:<br /><br />I appreciate your conciliatory tone and would be a jerk if I didn't respond in kind.<br /><br />I don't think the Church hates me. I think in the past it hated my predecessors out of ignorance. I am very glad this approach has changed. I agree with you that at no time has the Lord ever hated His gay children. In fact I believe He made us this way and does not share Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-73861105422166163472010-09-22T14:41:34.463-07:002010-09-22T14:41:34.463-07:00Rob,
You clearly have a very negative agenda and ...Rob,<br /><br />You clearly have a very negative agenda and are unable, or unwilling to fairly represent the Church's teachings. It's called creating a "straw man," in which you misrepresent your opponents position so you can easily knock it down without having to address the true merits of the opposing side's arguments. You pretend that the Church hates those who are Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-61960960804440870012010-09-22T14:01:28.418-07:002010-09-22T14:01:28.418-07:00Ryan's Statement #2: My point regarding the B...Ryan's Statement #2: My point regarding the Benitez case was . . . someone dared to oppose the procedure on the grounds of freedom of religion [and] that was at the root of the case. Religious rights have been infringed in Mass. as well. You know this, but choose not to acknowledge it. I can't help you there.<br /><br />Response: And the religously-based opposition to the procedure was Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-30001573220067869902010-09-22T14:00:43.443-07:002010-09-22T14:00:43.443-07:00In 1890 First Presidency Counselor Joseph F. Smith...In 1890 First Presidency Counselor Joseph F. Smith was confronted with case involving homosexuality of several young young Mormon men in south-central Utah. He instructed the Richfield Stake Presidency to "Get the names of all of them & cut them off the church" for "obscene, filthy & horrible practices". Pres. Smith also here referred to a group of Saints who had Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-9242426278319624842010-09-22T13:59:44.081-07:002010-09-22T13:59:44.081-07:00@Ryan:
Ryan's Statement #1: You are delibera...@Ryan:<br /><br />Ryan's Statement #1: You are deliberately misrepresenting the Church's teachings regarding homosexual behavior. Do not confuse "homosexual behavior" with individuals who are attracted to members of the same gender. The behavior is wrong. The attraction does not make someone a bad person in any way. That is what the Church teaches now, and what it has always Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-30426008613966059742010-09-22T10:36:55.561-07:002010-09-22T10:36:55.561-07:00Rob,
Your anger and misrepresentations are distur...Rob,<br /><br />Your anger and misrepresentations are disturbing, but not surprising. <br /><br />You should be ashamed of yourself for deliberately misrepresenting the Church's teachings regarding homosexual behavior. Do not confuse "homosexual behavior" with individuals who are attracted to members of the same gender. The behavior is wrong. The attraction does not make someoneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-33430622839908929132010-09-22T09:36:35.439-07:002010-09-22T09:36:35.439-07:00Clarification:
Two comments to this post (one from...<b>Clarification:</b><br />Two comments to this post (one from Anonymous/Ryan and one from Rob) were kept in limbo by the Blogger spam filter. I've let the comments through so they can be seen. I'll check the spam folder periodically to make sure the legitimate comments aren't being filtered.Pablohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15390721012768975275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-65333449948817893342010-09-22T09:16:59.103-07:002010-09-22T09:16:59.103-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-87572784105585897512010-09-22T00:03:35.455-07:002010-09-22T00:03:35.455-07:00Ryan's Claim #5: Gay marriage is not about ma...Ryan's Claim #5: Gay marriage is not about marriage, it's a a stepping stone in the larger effort to silence any individual, or institution, that dares to teach that homosexual behavior is immoral. <br /><br />Until you cite credible evidence for this claim, it will stand only as a frankly paranoid theory deserving of no further attention.<br /><br />Ryan's Claim #6: when you look atRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-21859425572853071612010-09-22T00:02:53.209-07:002010-09-22T00:02:53.209-07:00Ryan's Claim #2. The argument that Mass., Iow...Ryan's Claim #2. The argument that Mass., Iowa, etc., still exist even though they have permitted same-sex marriage is one of the tired, old arguments you reference in your post. Sodom and Gomorrah could've said the same thing the day before Lot came to visit.<br /><br />Response: Clearly you don't even have the basic facts of the Sodom story right, so I will take everything else Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-43113202820174214802010-09-21T23:57:03.294-07:002010-09-21T23:57:03.294-07:00Ryan:
With all due respect, you are a troll. You...Ryan:<br /><br />With all due respect, you are a troll. Your arguments are incomplete, inconsistent and shot through with fallacies, as shown below. I will summarize each of your points by number and then will respond seriatim.<br /><br />Ryan's Claim #1. It is untrue to say that "For far longer than that, the church has vilified gay people as dangerous, subversive and a threat to Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-1835506358667010512010-09-21T17:40:25.072-07:002010-09-21T17:40:25.072-07:00Rob,
As an attorney who has read the Miracle of F...Rob,<br /><br />As an attorney who has read the Miracle of Forgiveness, I can unequivocally state that it in no way villifies people who are attracted to members of the same sex. And, while you are entitled to believe Pablo is correct, would you really claim that you have no biases on the issue?<br /><br />RyanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-21834005712206223452010-09-21T17:30:35.276-07:002010-09-21T17:30:35.276-07:00Pablo,
This statement is libelous:
"For far...Pablo,<br /><br />This statement is libelous:<br /><br />"For far longer than that, the church has vilified gay people as dangerous, subversive and a threat to civilization."<br /><br />This is an untrue statement. Personal opinion is not a defense to libel. The Church may teach that homosexual behavior is immoral, but that isn't the same thing.<br /><br />And, I'm assuming Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-21156140483008016872010-09-21T17:24:52.002-07:002010-09-21T17:24:52.002-07:00@Ryan:
Good for you. But setting up an account t...@Ryan:<br /><br />Good for you. But setting up an account to identify yourself in blog comments takes only a moment or two, so you'll forgive my skeptical opinion of your reasons for staying "anonymous."<br /><br />Now let's get to the merits. Pablo has refuted your accusations of ad hominem attacks. It's up to you now to show why he is wrong.<br /><br />FWIW, his Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-1171874744893822042010-09-21T17:14:50.116-07:002010-09-21T17:14:50.116-07:00Well dang it. That was a really good comment and ...Well dang it. That was a really good comment and I don't remember everything that was in it. I don't know if I have the energy to try to recreate it.<br /><br />Rob,<br /><br />I've actually tried commenting on your blog before, but I don't want to go through the whole process of setting up an account since I don't blog. And I reject your suggestion that commenting Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-69547083811352940032010-09-21T16:59:58.694-07:002010-09-21T16:59:58.694-07:00Anonymous, if you are still reading these comments...Anonymous, if you are still reading these comments, I challenge you to de-cloak and have the courage to state your opinions without the mask. Man up. Your church praises the pursuit of truth and its leaders have repeatedly stated that "only error needs to fear freedom of expression" (Pres. Hugh B. Brown). If what you say is true, you should have no fear attaching your own name to Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-79721756191284113362010-09-21T16:24:16.042-07:002010-09-21T16:24:16.042-07:00I haven't deleted any comments to this post. I...I haven't deleted any comments to this post. I received an e-mail notification that "Anonymous" had posted a comment and was curious as to why the comment didn't show up. Re-post it if you wish. <br /><br />I just ask that anyone leaving a comment recognize and respect the fact that this is <i>my</i> blog, that a commenter is a <i>guest</i>, and that the primary purpose of my Pablohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15390721012768975275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-1349255847040342532010-09-21T16:03:59.207-07:002010-09-21T16:03:59.207-07:00Did my second comment get erased?Did my second comment get erased?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-37245723315873799782010-09-21T15:04:42.373-07:002010-09-21T15:04:42.373-07:00"For far longer than that, the church has vil..."For far longer than that, the church has vilified gay people as dangerous, subversive and a threat to civilization. "<br /><br />This is absolutely false, and libelous. Personal opinion is not a defense. It is true that the Church has taught that homosexual behavior is morally wrong, but, as you pointed out, truth is a defense.<br /><br />I would genuinely like to discuss this issue Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-27009793664079308772010-09-21T13:17:18.308-07:002010-09-21T13:17:18.308-07:00Thanks BLB and Sean. And thanks again to Rob for t...Thanks BLB and Sean. And thanks again to Rob for the kind words and reference on his blog to my post. <br /><br />Here's some additional general information that might clarify things a bit.<br /><br /><i>Libel:</i> An intentionally false communication made in writing, pictures or signs that injures another's reputation or good name. Truth is a defense. <br /><br /><i>Group libel</i>: The Pablohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15390721012768975275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-85334451795859287762010-09-21T12:40:56.548-07:002010-09-21T12:40:56.548-07:00Brilliantly said! Yet again an anonymous zealous ...Brilliantly said! Yet again an anonymous zealous church member wants to give the church carte blanche and not hold them accountable for their actions. Admitting responsibility for the consequences is part of the reparation process. If the church collectively cannot acknowledge the atrocities it continues to commit on the corporate and individual member levels there will be no changes made and Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04561860729984232424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2533834163006537741.post-17074543076516693812010-09-21T11:53:24.255-07:002010-09-21T11:53:24.255-07:00To Anonymous, Civility ain't 100% support of c...To Anonymous, Civility ain't 100% support of church positions. You're welcome.Laurenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02452126809752182340noreply@blogger.com